Phillip Naithram: Angie Heise. Thank you so much for being here, DC, local leaders. We’re here in your office here with Microsoft.
Angie Heise: I’m so excited to talk to you and thank you for having me.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah. You know, I’m glad we got connected. We know some common people in the industry and your name’s come up more than once. And they said, you got to have her
Angie Heise: I’m looking forward to having our conversation.
Phillip Naithram: We were talking earlier, so a year you’re in Microsoft, head of defense & intelligence, but it’s a global effort. Tell us a little bit more about that.
Angie Heise: Yeah. So, in Microsoft, I am the corporate vice president for defense and intelligence industry. So, I have responsibility for setting the strategy and bringing together the, go to market and engineering products across the globe for our defense and intelligence customers.
Phillip Naithram: Do you get to travel a lot with this? With what you’re doing?
Angie Heise: well with COVID I haven’t traveled as much as I would normally, but I am getting ready to go on a two-week trip here in, in a week.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah. Some more fun.
Angie Heise: yeah, actually. Yeah, so I have a great opportunity. I’m going to London Amsterdam and then Rome, and have some speaking engagements and meeting with customers and meeting with my team and really looking forward to it. and keep looking forward to getting to some sense of normalcy relative to business travel.
Phillip Naithram: How many people are within your team altogether? Across the globe?
Angie Heise: So, I have, I have a small team that directly report to me right, Microsoft is a large matrix organization. And so, we have several. thousand people across the globe that are supporting defense and intelligence customers.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah. Is this one of the largest responsibilities you’ve had in your career so far?
Angie Heise: It definitely, is. it’s a different set of responsibilities and one of the reasons, why I was really drawn to not only the role, but to Microsoft in that I’ve previously worked for, companies that are much more hierarchical and this, this ability to work in a matrix organization and to be able to orchestrate. impact was really compelling for me.
Phillip Naithram: You’ve had this career that’s been centered around government contracting and defense specifically? Well, I guess you’ve done some civil stuff in the past. Did you know that this is what you wanted to do when you set out? Or did you just find yourself through a series of events being here?
Angie Heise: So, I knew very early on that I wanted to do something with technology. Probably about age nine and then later on, in my career, or actually later on in my life, but early on in my career, I was doing internships and was, was actually interning for Scott air force base in Illinois and building out capabilities for mission critical systems and really found purpose with that. And Then I ended up making the strange decision to go and do some consulting at a very large beer company and realizing that I didn’t get the same sense of purpose and mission working for a company like that and so, decided that I needed to go back to. the defense industry.
Phillip Naithram: So, what it sounds like you don’t want to tell us the name of the beer company, but you know, I’m going to ask, cause you’re smiling right at me. You guys can’t see us,
Angie Heise: No. Yeah. So it was, I went to work as a consultant through a small business. for Anheuser-Busch and I think I was a senior in college. And so, I had had done this great internship with Scott air force base, and then Got a phenomenal offer. to go work this consulting gig in Anheuser-Busch and went and took it. And, you know, I kind of joked, but I knew very early on when I started there, that there was the company value, different things than what I necessarily valued. And I give the example that I, I, actually, we worked the software engineers worked in the old horse stables, so they had renovated the Clydeโs did stables No, no, no. they were nice stables. They’re the Clydesdales, right for Anheuser-Busch right. So
Phillip Naithram: The ones that kicked the field goal on the, for the super bowl.
Angie Heise: Yeah. And they had built new. stables for the horses. And so, they had renovated the stables. for the software engineering group that I worked with. And so that should have been pretty telling. But it was, it was a great learning experience because what I learned is different companies have done. things that they value in different ways you can move up. right? And in Anheuser-Busch It was either you’re a brew master or you’re in marketing. That’s how you moved up. And so, when you were a software engineer, you were overhead. And so, I was on a team of five. I had just graduated college and I had seen 10 people fired on my team. And I, by the time, I decided to leave there, which was only two years later, I was running the operations for. their supply chain system. And so, and I had just graduated from college. And so, it was a, it was an eye-opening experience. And I learned a ton, But I also learned that I really needed to ensure that I worked for a company where my career aspirations would be valued as well as my contributions. And my engineering skills, my computer science skills would be a path to be able to move up in the corporation.
Phillip Naithram: How old are you
Angie Heise: at the time? I was, 22,
Phillip Naithram: yeah, that’s a lot. That’s a lot of insight. I mean, did you, did you know that then really? Or can you reflect on that now and have the vocabulary to describe what you were experiencing
Angie Heise: I knew some of it then, but a certainly is something I’ve been reflecting over so, my career, but I, I ended up, going straight from there to Lockheed Martin.
Phillip Naithram: yeah. So then, and then you got into this, this sort of government contracting defense role, and that led you to well doing more civil stuff at Leidos. So, you’re one of those people that started as a technologist and found yourself into more of a leadership soft skill role. Not, not that you don’t, I’m sure you use your technical skills every day. I don’t want to make you feel like it wasn’t worth it, but so, you know, you, you were able to make that transition and I think that’s hard for some people, I think learning the skill sets to do that can be sometimes difficult.
How did you do that along the way?
Angie Heise: I knew I wanted a challenge. I knew I wanted a lot of responsibility and so. I loved, I love doing, software development. I started at Lockheed doing Java development and I absolutely loved it, but I also realized very quickly, because I was part of a small team out at Scott air force base and had the opportunity when executives would come out. I was always selected to do the briefings, or I would do the briefings for the three- and four-star generals at the base. And I
Phillip Naithram: How Old are you at this point?
Angie Heise: I was 23. 24.
Phillip Naithram: Was that intimidating at all?
Angie Heise: No, for me it was exciting.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah.
Angie Heise: I liked it.
Phillip Naithram: Did you have mentors and coaches around you that, because I feel like that conversation presenting that information to people of that, that status within our military could be intimidating for anyone, but especially an old
Angie Heise: Yeah. I w I would say I’ve been blessed, throughout my whole life, right. To have fantastic people around me to be able to guide and coach me and yeah. and also give me enough room to make mistakes. and stumble and fall. Right. But they’re always there to catch me. And so, I, I had this quite honestly, a huge adrenaline rush whenever I was able to you know, really because get in front of people, and talk about the tremendous progress that our team was making and, and it was fortunate because I ended up catching the eye of several of the Lockheed Martin executives throughout that process.
Phillip Naithram: Did they become your mentors because they started paying attention to you? Or how did you, I guess I kind of cut you off. Cause I was oh my God, how did you do this? What are the replicable steps that someone else can take?
Angie Heise: I’m not sure that it’s necessarily replicable what I did. To be honest because but there’s some, some takeaways and lessons I think people could absolutely learn from. so, I happened to be leading a team, of software developers and I was probably 24 25 at that time. Right. I was working for Lockheed and moved my, moved out to become a technical lead. But I realized that the other four gentlemen that were running technical teams, on the same level that I was, they were two levels higher.
So, I went to my, I went to my manager at the time, and I said, you know, kind of made my case. and said, look, I don’t understand. Right. Why I’m two levels lower than my peers And I have the same amount of responsibility. and I would like for you to do something about it. And He said he understood, he would look into it. And he knew where I was coming from. And so about two weeks later, he got back to me and I’ll never forget sitting in his office because he told me he had looked into it and while he agreed with, me, he wasn’t willing to go fight for me. And if you wouldn’t have said those words, everything probably would have been different. And he may have even said fight for it. Right. Like the promotion, but all I heard was fight for me. And I, I remember shutting my notebook and telling him thank him very much and that I would be looking for new employment
Phillip Naithram: you said that when you in the room,
Angie Heise: of course. And I walked out and then got a job. I gave my notice. at Lockheed about three hours after I gave my notice. I got a call from a Lockheed Martin president. in Virginia. I was in Illinois working at scatter for space at the time. And he said, I think you’re making a mistake. And he was calling from vacation. Right. And so, I was a little taken aback because I didn’t expect that. Right. I wasn’t quitting to get attention. I was quitting because I needed to work for someone else. And He told me he wanted me to come work, come to DC and worked for him for a year. and that he would show me a different type of company, and he gave me 24 hours to make a decision. And I. I, I wasn’t sure to be honest what I was going to do. Cause I had made a commitment to another, company and I so, believed strongly. you make commitments. You do not break them. But the good thing was, it was it was actually, a good friend of mine. The gentleman that I I’m still friends with, he was like, who had made me the offer of they, of the company. He’s like, you got to go do this. This will change your career. and it did.
Phillip Naithram: How old were you at this point?
Angie Heise: Oh, let me think that was in two. It was in 2000. So, I had graduated. college in 96, so I was maybe 26.
Phillip Naithram: So, your mid-twenties, were you, was it just, you, were you single at the time? Were you married? Were there, was there anyone else involved in this?
Angie Heise: Yeah. So actually, that’s probably a little funny story. I was married. My husband actually worked at the Lockheed Martin office with me. It was a consultant there. And I walked down to his office and I said I was gotten offered and moved to DC for a year and go to this job. and he was immediate.
You got to go, you got to go do that. And I was like, eh, I don’t know. I don’t know. So, we went home and talked about it. I called my dad. Right. And he said, yes, you got to go do this. Everybody was telling me yes. And I was like, I don’t think so. And so, I, That next morning. I told my husband but before he left for work, that I was going to say now.
And so, then I had a fantastic leader that I had previously worked for call me and she’s like, hey, I heard you just got this offer. You got to do it. And I was like, no, I’m not going to do it. And going to she said to me, she’s like, because I grew up on a farm in Illinois, I had never left Illinois. and she’s like, you can never make a career. decision based on Fear. And that’s what you are doing right now. Don’t do it. And I was like, you’re absolutely right.
Phillip Naithram: Where were you? Were you more afraid of the responsibility? So, I, to what was the job one? Cause I mean, if you know, where they asking you to build a spaceship or something, everyone’s like, you got to go do this, but you know, were you more afraid of not being able to fulfill the responsibility of the job? or just moving,
Angie Heise: everything, everything scared me about it. Right. So, I was afraid. the fact that I was going to have to be away from my husband for a year. I was afraid of living outside of Illinois. as silly as it sounds to me, now
Phillip Naithram: that’s where your family network is. That’s where everything, you know,
Angie Heise: Yes, everybody. Right? I was scared about the job I was going to be working. It was a, it was a rotational assignment. as a, what they call technical assistant right in LA. I was afraid I wasn’t prepared. I was afraid that I would fail. Right. There were so many things. scared me about it. And so, but when she said that to me, I just, I was like, you’re right. and I called the, I called the Lockheed Martin president and said I accepted the job. And then, a couple of hours later, I told my husband I had accepted.
Phillip Naithram: What did you do. With that fear. How did you process that to get from consumed by all this fear? And now I’m just going to take this action.
Angie Heise: I think when she said those words to me, I so was never one and have never been one to step down from a challenge. Right. I’m a very competitive. person.
Phillip Naithram: So, you’re like, I’ll show you.
Angie Heise: I was like oh Yeah. that’s not me. That’s not how I define myself. Exactly. And I, I decided to make the jump and it was a matter of quite honestly, it was a matter of minutes right on that phone call with her. And I’ll forever be grateful for her. to call me. And so, cause she kind of called me out, right. Everybody else was doing it from an encouraging standpoint and she was, she called me up and said, you know, what are you doing? Right. You think youโre hot. You know, you think you can do this. Yeah.
Phillip Naithram: There’s people killing for this job, and you’re just sitting here
Angie Heise: Yeah, exactly. You got to throw it in your lap, get it, take it, make something of it. And I also had a little bit of guilt because I didn’t quit. I didn’t give my notice to get this position and right. I gave my notice to go do something different. And I, so there was guilt that I hadn’t, really earned
Phillip Naithram: did you feel undeserving in a way or they’re only doing this because I threatened to leave. Not because they think I’m good enough to have it.
Angie Heise: Yeah. Yes, yes. Even though right. He told me he’s like, you’re on the talent list. And then in hindsight, they wouldn’t have called me if they, if I hadn’t been on their talent list. right. If they hadn’t had plans to want me to rotate around and that type of
Phillip Naithram: They would have just let you go.
Angie Heise: wouldn’t let me go at the time though. I didn’t necessarily have an appreciation for that.
Phillip Naithram: Has that experience changed the way that you, what I hear you’re saying is that this fraught, the emotional appeal that some people were giving you, wasn’t actually what you needed, what you needed was someone who wasn’t being mean to you, but she was just being very honest without worrying about your feelings.
Has that changed the way that you mentor others? Or what did you learn from that experience in terms of how to mentor others?
Angie Heise: a hundred percent? I think having a conversation with people about what’s holding them back right. And honest conversation about why they’re either choosing to do something or not choosing to do something is something I almost, probably every mentoring conversation I have.
Right. And You know, it opened a door for me. that I didn’t know was even a possibility before. And so, I have a lot of, dialogues with my mentees on, how do you assess all the potential opportunities in front of you? Right. and how do you do that homework, and explore maybe the other 20%. that you had no idea even exists. And I think that’s really important to be deliberate about your, career moves and be deliberate about, the jobs you take, be deliberate about who you work for about the teams that you choose, the companies you choose, not just let it happen.
Phillip Naithram: Well, what do you encourage them to do in order to find out that 20%
Angie Heise: network, right. Understand what they’re really passionate about understand what are all the possibilities, having discussions with people where. whether it’s Me sharing them, with, you know, my career path or other people that they see, and they said, I’d love to have that job, right? how can you how can you go get that? How can you go have a conversation? to talk about What was their journey? right? What was the, options that they had?
Phillip Naithram: what was the job like What do they want you to do?
Angie Heise: to be honest, the job was to as crazy. as this sounds right. It, My job. I mean, I had the medial things of preparing presentations and PowerPoint slides and, you know, Excel, right. All that sort of stuff, but it was preparing me to do something different. That’s really what it was about.
Phillip Naithram: So, you know, I ask everyone that I talk to about this and it doesn’t have, you don’t have to say that it is. But I asked him about a jumping off point or pivotal moments. The jumping off point is a little bit different. That’s a moment in time where you’re unsure of what to do, but you know, you can’t keep doing what you’re doing. You’re just unsure of what to do next. And I don’t want to just say that that was a jumping off point for you. Maybe you’ve had others, but do you think that you’d be where you are now without taking that position or, or doing that?
Angie Heise: a hundred percent NO.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah. So, it’s kind of, that’s what those people knew about that position that you didn’t know at the time that you didn’t have the perception to even say or think because you learned how to do what you’re doing now there, that you wouldn’t have otherwise got. Right.
Angie Heise: Yeah, I, So. he, you know, the president there at the time he promoted me three times a year. Right. And then he ended up sending me back to the same office I came from. And so, all of a sudden, the people that I had, been previously working for, I was now their boss. And so, I skipped the if you will kind of like, the first line management and, and went and ran operations for our mission critical system. And it, it completely changed the path of my career, how I saw it and threw me right straight from deep technical to leadership in a very short time period. And so, for me, that was, it was jarring for many reasons. And I had to learn, I had to learn fast. Right. Is a little bit like throwing you in the deep end of the pool?
Phillip Naithram: Did pool? that other supervisor that didn’t want to fight for it ever tell you why? Why are you laughing?
Angie Heise: I’m laughing? Cause he ended up working for me a few years after that, but
Phillip Naithram: Did he ever tell you why they’re what was it about what you were asking him to do that he didn’t want to do? Or what there was there a reason,
Angie Heise: Yeah, so, you know, I think it’s any company, right? There’s a limited time or limited set of promotions, right? They allocate so, much and some leaders all say, we’ll do it. If it’s easier to do right. sometimes it is hard. Yeah, and it is really, really hard to go for what we used to call an out of cycle. Right. And out of cycle promotion. And I’m sure he had a lot of people working for him Right. He had a lot of other things and the idea of, to go fight for an auto cycle promotion. It just, it wasn’t something he had the energy to go do.
Phillip Naithram: Was he older in his career?
Angie Heise: You know, he was probably mid Yeah, career and. And I’ll be honest. He probably gave me the one of the best gifts of my career, because one, he was honest with me. Right. If he wouldn’t have said he wasn’t willing to go fight for it. I Yeah, wouldn’t have got My notice. I would have not have had the opportunity. to Right. There are so many things that wouldn’t have happened. And, And I recognized her, you know, during that time period. And in hindsight is that was a limitation of him, not me.
Phillip Naithram: yeah, that said more about him than it did about you. But at the time, did you know that
Angie Heise: I did. good. I did,
Phillip Naithram: did you, where’d you get that message from, how did you know that? Because I feel like at that age,
Angie Heise: Yeah, I will say I’ve always been pretty confident, right? I’m definitely. from my parents, my family. Right? Yeah, absolutely.
Phillip Naithram: were you what’d your parents do? Did you come from a technical household?
Angie Heise: No, I was raised on a farm and so my, my dad was a farmer for a while. And then Both my parents, I saw when I was in, elementary school decided to go, they were high school graduates, but they decided to go get college degrees. And so, my mom became a teacher. and then my dad became an accountant and we left the farm when I was maybe 15.
Phillip Naithram: He went, so your dad went from being a farmer to an accountant and in your mom became a teacher after, but how you watch them change their career
Angie Heise: completely It changed our whole household. It changed all our, lives.
Phillip Naithram: do you remember how old they were?
Angie Heise: Oh gosh. They were probably, they were?
probably in their late twenties. They had me when they were really young.
Phillip Naithram: How old are you at this time?
Angie Heise: So, I was in elementary school, yeah. I remember my sister and I sitting in the back of the classroom. With my, my dad, you know, in class and we’d be back there doing coloring and doing paperwork and stuff. Cause they were both in school and so somebody had to take us,
Phillip Naithram: How old is your sister?
Angie Heise: she’s two years younger than me.
Phillip Naithram: and do you remember, what were the conversations they were having? What wore off on you during that time that you carry with you know that really helps you do what you’re doing? I’m trying to get an idea because one, you know, your dad’s a farmer. So, he’s that, that says a lot, farmers think a certain way in terms of their crops and what has to happen at certain times and doing and consistency. Right. Doing small amounts of work in a consistent manner to. Reap what you sow. Right. And that’s teaching you something and then he goes, and he becomes an accountant, but the process of changing your career entirely to make that happen. Right. And then your mom’s a teacher. So that comes, you know, she’s in a classroom full of other students, right. Kids. And I’m sure you learned things from her too. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. My, my, my parents are fantastic. So, a couple things, one, it was it was in the eighties, right when they were, when my So, dad and my grandfather were farming. and There was a lot of droughts in Southern Illinois. So, we had, we had hogs for a while. We usually grew corn sorghum. Beans. And so, we had, you know, sold corn out of the back of our pickup truck in the summer, and the, you know, so every night we’d go pick sweet corn. I’ve picked way more sweet corn than any person should. Yes. Yes. And so definitely learned. about, you know, family and hard work. And also, that there’s a lot of things in, farming that you can’t control. right. And so, in the eighties there was a lot of droughts and, and so those environmental factors really have a significant impact on your ability to be successful,
but they’re beyond your control.
Angie Heise: They’re completely behind well beyond your control, but it’s in hindsight. And I didn’t realize that at the time, I think what I was so impressed by was my parents wanted it to be within their control. And that’s why they went back. to college. That’s why They planned ahead years and years ahead, before I even realized it to move us off the farm. Right. So that more, more of our life would be within our control.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah, it sounds so. They were, they were getting tired of the uncertainty that came with it and they wanted some more. Certainty or stability and they took actions towards getting that. And you saw that as a young age. What does that do for, how do you think that that’s changed some of your career decisions? So, I mean, you, you went through this experience that we talked about,
Angie Heise: so, I am. Yeah, yeah, we have so we have five so, kids I am one family is first for everything and, and try to try to live that every day and, and make sure that my kids know and, and feel how important it is? I would also say it has made me an unbelievable. planner. I plan out everything probably to the detriment of my family. I actually,
Phillip Naithram: Are you a list maker,
Angie Heise: I’m a list maker? I’m a menu planner for the week. I, I schedule. Yes.
Phillip Naithram: You a meal prep,
Angie Heise: yes, I meal prep, but I, I actually have a printed calendar for the week. So, everybody knows what, what meal will be cooked for every, every single meal. And then if something needs to be thought out what day it needs to be thought out what the grocery list is that goes with it. Yes,
Phillip Naithram: So, and are you a journaled also?
Angie Heise: yes.
Phillip Naithram: are this okay. What’s your process like? So, do you have a morning routine also?
Angie Heise: yeah, I, my itโs pretty down to the minute. So, I get up at Five 20 every
Phillip Naithram: 20. Okay. And our five 20,
Angie Heise: Five 20. I am out of the house by 5 45 to the gym Okay underground athlete? It’s a Yes. Well, they wouldn’t say lifting. we’ll speak. Right. And, and high impact interval training. So. Do that from six to seven. And then I am home, and before I go out of that house, at 5 45, I make my son’s breakfast. Right. And
Phillip Naithram: how old is your son? You have five up. Well, you have five
Angie Heise: so, the youngest one, there’s only one at home still I’m the youngest one just turned 12 yesterday. And so, but, but that’s kind of my he’s old enough to make his own breakfast, but that’s so, my thing.
I had to do that for him. Right. And then, I’m at work by eight
Phillip Naithram: so, all right. So you go, you work out from, from what? Six to seven, you shower at the gym,
Angie Heise: No, come home,
Phillip Naithram: you come home; you shower. Do you, do you have a, so when, when do you do your journaling? When do you do you?
Angie Heise: a nighttime thing for me. So, I have probably almost as rigorous nighttime schedule that I kind of stick to and I usually go upstairs read journal. And for me, journaling is really about reflecting. on whatever has happened During the day during the week, what’s on my mind. Right. Thinking through whatever is, whatever those events were sometimes it’s professional, right? Sometimes it’s personal. It just depends.
Phillip Naithram: What time does that start?
Angie Heise: I always, I go upstairs eight 30 journaling starts at nine.
Phillip Naithram: do you, do you manage screen time? Like, do you turn off TVs and phones at a certain time for a certain amount of time before you go to sleep? Or are you dialed in that way?
Angie Heise: I will say I try not to get on my phone, but it’s, not. But sometimes it’s just not reasonable. to, to, to not check. But I to not So, look at the phone within an hour or a screen with an hour before I go to sleep
Phillip Naithram: What about prayer and meditation? Are you in anything that?
Angie Heise: Yeah. so, I’ve tried meditating and quite a bit, so there’s a great app, Headspace abused, right. That I love. And so, I, I don’t do that every day. It’s more of a, for me it’s a, when I’m feeling stressed or feeling, like I need to control something, I will I’ll turn it on. And I’ll do you know, a few minutes here or there?
Phillip Naithram: So that’s your, that’s your barometer when you feel like you need to control something. That’s interesting that you said that, and that was what, where did you learn that? Or what brought that lesson to you?
Angie Heise: That actually was relatively recent. And our coach at the, at the gym is the one that recommended that I check in the Headspace because I am fascinated with stress management and, and there’s a great book right now. I’m reading burnout and I and I have my next one is, M O Y zebras don’t get ulcers Have you read that, yeah. and so, it’s all been part of, I’ll say kind of my habit building of, hey, what do I need to do? to, to manage my own stress?
Phillip Naithram: I want to dig into, so that’s why, I’m glad we’re talking about this. For you to be a leader period, but especially in a role that you’re in, you’ve got to, I think what I’ve been learning is that you have to consciously make efforts to manage yourself. Right. So that you can show us the self, not the self-thatโs inside of Angie, right. To, to show up as the person that, that you want to be for your team. Right. But and then you have your family, there has to be a balance and it is doable because people are doing it, but it takes some intentionality. And it sounds like you have that, but I want to dig into where you learn that, who you’re practicing it from why it’s valuable to you.
It’s intimidating to hear that you do that much planning, where, where did you learn. That from was that something you learned from your parents? Your, your mom’s a teacher, she’s got to have a lesson plan. Did you see her doing that? Is that where you got that from
Angie Heise: absolutely. My, my mom, my mom, his sister, we are all, obsessive list makers. Right. And
Phillip Naithram: What does it do? Why do you, what’s the value in that for you? W what is it doing for you to, to be that way
Angie Heise: there is definitely a sense of. Control. And, and for me kind of thinking through what to expect, whether it’s what to expect within the day? What’s it, expect within the week what’s to expect within the year that allows me to not only get a sense of control, but also get a sense of goals. Right. So, what time goes by so fast? right? And so How can we be very intentional about how we use that time and get to achieve? and accomplish what we want to accomplish? And so, I’ll just tell you a Funny story When my sister was on the phone, with her this morning, after I got out of the gym. She was wrapping her five Christmas presents because every morning that’s what she does. So, she can have all of her stuff done right before, before Thanksgiving, right. All of our Christmas shopping,
Phillip Naithram: before Thanksgiving, do you guys have a competition about that or something?
Angie Heise: No, but that is, that’s just the way we that’s the that’s the way we, my mom and was raised us and we, we, we plan, we plan out our days, we plan out the weeks we plan our vacations
Phillip Naithram: Do you think that’s because she’s a T I right feel Iโm; I think I’m keying in on that, but maybe it’s not maybe because your dad was a farmer
Angie Heise: think, I think is a, probably a little bit, because she was a teacher. I think I definitely saw her, do right. Do her bulletin boards. Right? And planning for the school year and our lesson plans. I think it’s a little bit about for her, also driving expectations for the family. Right? Of What, what needs to happen? Because she was, she was going to school, right. We were farming. and she had kids at home. and so, I remembered he very young age, right. She’d make out a menu of the week. We’d all be assigned a night that we had to cook
Phillip Naithram: so that that’s gotten ingrained in you and not just you and your sister. Right. So that’s part of the environment. So, you got that from your parents, from your
Angie Heise: Yeah, absolutely.
Phillip Naithram: And I, I heard you say, so it puts some stability or some control or some certainty is that because your days, especially in a position that you’re in is relatively uncertain. You don’t know exactly how it’s going to go. So, you try to have as much of a framework to work within as you can.
Angie Heise: Yeah. I think there’s some of that. I think the other part of it was So right when you are on a farm is. My dad and my grandpa they’d be on the fields to late. And it was always really important for us that we all ate together. And so, it took too much time for him to come in, right from the fields, wherever he was at to eat. So, we always would pack up our, and it was a hot meal, right. Because they’d been working all day. And so, we would take our hot. meal out to the, to the fields, right. And be able to eat and so, and we so, didn’t live close to a grocery store, right? So, there’s a lot of things that you had to plan and prepare to make that, happen. Right. To create that that family moment that we, every day we had, supper together, no matter what field he was in, no matter what he was doing, and it would be a hot, meal, it might be eaten off the hood of the pickup truck, but we, we were together. And that was what was important.
Phillip Naithram: You still doing that today with your family?
Angie Heise: We do. We do. And especially with my global job now I try to, between six and seven Every day is a meal time. And so, we have meals together and then, then I’m on with, Australia and Asia and in the
Phillip Naithram: have other time zones that you have to be responsible for it also. So, you, your day is kind of spread out. And so, all right.
You mentioned that every time you feel like you need to control something is when you lean towards your Headspace app or you try to take a moment out. But you’re setting up the list to create control so, how do you know where’s the line? Like, how do you balance that? How do you know when you’re doing too much to try to control something too much, versus setting yourself up for success, by just having a plan, you just saying have a plan to do stuff, right? Because you grew up in an environment where you had to plan, that was the only way it’s going to happen, because there were other things you couldn’t control that you, you’d never be able to control it, but they’re not a reason to not do it.
And that’s just kind of how life is. And, and, and you’ve been successful doing that.
I get where you’re going, but how do you know the line when it’s, you know, Angie’s doing too much versus just preparing herself
Angie Heise: So, I would say I probably do too much on a regular basis, but, but I have a couple of guideposts to try to make sure that I don’t go over. Right. So, some things that are, are non-negotiables for me. Right. So, working out non-negotiable. right. I absolutely have to do that. It makes me feel so much different and better the rest of the day
Phillip Naithram: That seven days a week. Are you up at 5 27 days a?
Angie Heise: usually on the weekend, maybe it would be six.
Phillip Naithram: Okay. But you’re doing that workout in the morning, like it’s
Angie Heise: Yeah. Absolutely a hundred percent. And so, and then if I’m not on travel right. Middle time with my family right. Is the other and those are kind of good. I’ll say good
conditions are good guideposts for, rate me to make, sure I do like control, but it is a plan Right. and I, I don’t obsess if, if we get off track, right. I am definitely, I give myself grace in a kind relative to, you know, what we have to order pizza tonight. Cause everything just didn’t happen the way it was. supposed to. Or, you know, what We are going to end up having a a??? a shortened workout, right. Because I have to get to this to this meeting. Right. So there, there are different and its exceptions, but then I get right back on the next, day. Right. For me, it’s about, you know what? think there could be hiccups, there can be changes. It’s that it’s that attempt at practice every single day. right. Attempt at making sure that that habit there becomes. Absolutely. just ingrained in part of, of who you are. But I, I meditate when I do feel like I’ve either over committed which happens, or I have so much stuff going on that I really need to think. through. All right. What’s the most important. Right? How do I prioritize? And that’s one thing that I’m trying to master is how do I really. nail down the most important. things that I have to accomplish or that I need to prioritize above anything else. And, and for me taking five minutes, 10 minutes, step back and kind of regroup is, is critical. for me to get that. get that clear.
Phillip Naithram: Sometimes it’s just getting out of our own head. You know, I, I could think about something all day long and by the time it’s time for me to take the action towards it, I’m exhausted because I feel like I’ve been dealing with this all day when I haven’t done anything it right. But it’s like, even if I call another person or just take a step out, take a, take a step back and let them tell me something about them. And it just gets me out of my head. And then whatever, I assume as a problem is no longer as heavy or as big as I thought it was.
So, gratitude lists, is that something that you do
Angie Heise: so sometimes, right. So, my, my journaling is a little all over the place, right? So sometimes it’ll be a list of things I’m grateful for that day, sometimes, like the thing I’m doing right now is And I haven’t actually shared them with any or sent them, but letters to like my aunts who have been, you know, critical role models for me and, and just writing them a letter about how grateful I am and different experiences and memories that, made So, an impact on me and made a difference. And, and just writing those, writing those letters, whether or not I send them, I probably will, but we’ll see sometimes it’s So, drawing even like it’ll say doodles in my in my journals, but it So, really is about trying to reflect. on whatever is going on. And I genuinely try to think about what I could learn from it and what I would have done maybe differently or could have improved on. or my big question. Right. now is what could I have done to make this more impactful day?
Phillip Naithram: And you ask yourself that question at the end of each day.
Angie Heise: Absolutely.
Phillip Naithram: I want to ask you about, I am statements too, because I found that I am as the most important sentence in the English language. Right. Because anything that we put in after that is how we identify ourselves. And so earlier you were sharing is how, how you’ve, you’ve learned to, you’re creating the habit you want, that you want the brain to get associated with every morning at a certain time, you’re doing a certain thing. You’re going to the gym and it’s not about how long you’re there every time. the, I am statements kind of come into play there because the internal voice. Angies internal voice. It sounds exactly like her. And I would assume if you’re like most human beings, it’s going to be sometimes overly critical.
Right? I mean, how do you talk to yourself internally and how do you manage that with either I am statements or cause how did you get to a point where you’re learned not to cry? Cause I like most people from time to time, if I don’t do something, the way that I set out to do, I can be really internally like kind of grind on myself, behavioral and be like, oh, he messed up again.
Are you supposed to be working out for an hour? This is why you’re so fat. Like, you know, or like, whatever. Right. I can go all day with this. We can get examples are like, yeah. It’s like, you’re supposed to wake up at five 20 it’s 5, 25. You’re late. Like, this is the problem. This is why you’re never going to get anywhere.
And I start remembering all the things I’ve done wrong that no one else knows about. That for some reason it seems like I can self-deprecate myself into better behavior. It’s never worked before, but it feels like doing something about it. And you’ve learned that that’s not something that’s necessary or helpful.
Like where’d you learn that lesson. Okay. What is your internal talk? Your, I am statements. What does that sound like?
Angie Heise: Yeah. so, I, I am definitely my biggest critic. Right. But I also learned in my career to also be my biggest cheerleader which really balances. and offsets that. voice. And so soon after I had worked for that president and had gone back, and was managing. a site in Illinois, I was, I was the most senior person there. I was one of the only female site leads. for a defense company in the area. And so, everybody kept thinking, I, was like the head of the admins, or I’m an office manager. They didn’t realize what my role was. Yeah. And so, I was really struggling with the role and like there was jokes right. About painting the walls pink and hanging up curtains, And, you know, and I, I. was Using my mentor, at the time as a way to reenergize myself. Right.
Phillip Naithram: Did that stuff make you more angry or sadder or somewhere in the middle?
Angie Heise: Somewhere in the middle.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah.
Angie Heise: Frustrated angry, determined right. to prove them wrong. Right. There are so many different things, but I also felt very lonely because I was, you know, at the site and the most senior person and sadder I didn’t have anybody to necessarily relate to. So, I found I was, I was spending all my mentoring sessions kind of dumping, right?
Phillip Naithram: More like a therapy session
Angie Heise: Yeah. and
Phillip Naithram: this is a guy that you’re talking
Angie Heise: yes. And he, and he was great. The first couple of times. And then he got tired of it and he did a fantastic thing. I felt horrible at first. but in hindsight it was a fantastic thing. He told me, he said, I need you to call these three people. He gave me three names of three people to call. and he said, and I am not going to talk to you again until you have a plan of how you’re going to manage your own morale. and he hung up on me.
I knew I had like messed up. Right. I had done something horribly wrong. And so, I did what he said. I called the three people. They were also site leads at other small sites. across Lockheed Martin. Right. And really talked through them. And then it was a few months later. Cause a little scared to call him back. Right. I wanted to make sure I had a really good plan. And so, I went back to him with a plan of how I was going to manage my own morale and going to that stuck with me. Right. The idea that you so, can’t, you can’t suck energy from other people, right? When you’re a leader you’re actually supposed to. be the one that is giving energy.
Right. And that that can be incredibly motivating to the team if you get that. Right. And so, I’ll be honest. I think that helped tremendously, my inside voice, right. that self-critic to, to temperate, to say, look, what’s your plan. all right. So, you missed the gym today, or the scale says, you know, you put on five pounds, what’s your plan? What are you going to do?
All right. We start over tomorrow, same habit. We’re going to do it this time. I’m going to do it 10 days in a row, this time I’m going to do a, holiday’s a row this time I’m going to do it. Right. And, and so it’s, it’s taking that critic and trying to make it into something constructive. that you can take action on.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah. That’s, you know, there’s a saying, find someone who has what you want and do what they do. You know or, you know, if you don’t want what you have, look at what you’re doing. Right. You know, that, that kind of thing. And I think what he, what he did there was he gave you people that were in the position that you were in to go talk to, to get their direct experience and advice to share your experience of what’s going on with you to get from them, how they had to deal with it.
Angie Heise: Absolutely. Yeah. He gave me a network right. Of, of shared experiences that I could pull from.
Phillip Naithram: Do you think that you would have not been, would you have received it differently if he said here’s what I’m doing? And here’s the people I want you to call, or do you think the way he did it was the way you needed it, because it’s the same way that another mentor of yours in the past said, Hey, you’re an idiot. You better take this job
Angie Heise: no, it was very impactful the way he ended up saying it to me. Right. And memorable. Oh Yeah.
Phillip Naithram: I mean, I’m just having a conversation with you now. And I’ve keyed in, on two people doing the same thing twice that seemed to work really well for you.
Angie Heise: Yeah,
Phillip Naithram: but then, I mean, I guess, but even with that doesn’t mean that that’s how everyone would learn. But that is how, how, how you got it.
Has that, what does that do for you when you’re mentoring other people now? Like how, what kind of advice are you giving them based on that experience? Because they’re like, no one person is going to fill all our gaps, so you got to have more than one mentor and then, you know, mentoring other people, helping other people. I learned so much more from the people that I help with, something that I may know how to do then than I think that they ever learned from me. How does that change your relationships that you have now? And what’s that look like in terms of like people that you mentor internally or just in general in life?
Angie Heise: Yeah, so, so I, I, I use that example. I usually share, I usually One of the things I do with most of my mentees is talk through my good and bad mentoring experiences, right. to, to help them say, look, what do you want out? of rate? What do you want out of this? relationship? What do you want out of, Y me for your mentor, right? Like you said, you can have lots of different people. But what is it that Thank you want to get? out of this. And to be able to have that conversation and also to set the expectations of look, some of my best learnings were from mentors and it was a painful experience.
It was not, not enjoyable and if you really want to learn. Right. I can be really direct. I can be very honest, but sometimes it may not be something that you really want to hear or that you even, like, but you need to understand that if I’m going to commit to investing this time, then I’m going to commit, to being honest with you. and absolutely. making, helping make them the best version of themselves.
Phillip Naithram: isn’t that crazy how sometimes we can ask her help and then we don’t want the help when it’s given or like, we’re just like, no, I didn’t want you to do it that way. know, like even, hey, proofread this email for me, and then they give it back with markups. It’s like, you know, it’s almost like this feeling of like, I can’t believe they’ve
Angie Heise: Right. I know. I really just want validation. I didn’t want,
Phillip Naithram: When we ask for help, it’s almost like we just want you to tell us everything about us is awesome and that we don’t actually need the help and like, oh wow. I kind of need that. Thank you. But that’s, but you’re, you’re being clear. Like, hey, like not everything I may hurt your feelings, but I’m not doing it to be mean.
I’m in fact, so that hurting the feelings, like that’s something that I think as a leader we all have to kind of get over in and people say, develop a thick skin. But I think that goes to vulnerability. Being able to put ourselves in vulnerable positions, receive the help when it’s given to us, knowing that like our pride, this idea of ego is not our amigo
our ego can be bruised a little bit because there’s that flash of almost like an embarrassment feeling when someone’s critiquing something you’re doing, but they’re doing it because you ask them to do it and everything, they’re telling you is going to make you better. And the second time you do that, won’t be as bad as the first. And you get into this habit of doing it, which sounds like you’re training your, your, your brain is sort of like just getting in the habit of doing things, right.
Angie Heise: absolutely. yeah. So, I just, I just read the book atomic habits. So
Phillip Naithram: Yeah, James clear.
Angie Heise: I am. Yes, yes. With fantastic.
Phillip Naithram: James clear. You know, that’s a big, so he talks about something and there’s another guy who’s Darren Hardy. They both talk about the compound effect and that’s kind of just doing it repetitively. And one of the things that we talk about with this podcast that’s why I take cold showers. I never want to do it. It’s never a great idea. I know I say this on almost every episode, but like, you know, but I learn a lot because the water is never as cold as I think it’s. It never hurts in a way that I think is going to be, and it’s, I did something that I didn’t want to do.
And the opposite of what I thought was a good idea. That is well outside of my comfort zone. But I did it anyway and I do it every day. I do it every day, because at some point throughout the day, something’s going to come up that I don’t want to do that is outside of my comfort zone that I think is going to be this horrible experience.
It’s going to go really bad. And it usually isn’t.
Angie Heise: Right.
Phillip Naithram: In you’re in a position like yours, you’re constantly pretty much pitching business on behalf of like Microsoft, we need to get into this new sector, we need to do this. We need to go after that business. Was that just repetition? Or did you go somewhere to learn how to do this? Like how do you get good at that?
Angie Heise: So, I will tell you for me, great experience, right. Great mentors, right. Watching what works, what doesn’t work right from my peers. I’ve had the great fortune of right running lots of different types of businesses, right? So, running a commercial cyber security business within Lockheed Martin running the enterprise information technology within Lockheed running the civil business, and now at Microsoft and, and I, I know. what my strengths are, right. I, I really, I think one of the things I’m really good at is helping build right teams and orchestrate impact, right. Orchestrate whatever that effect is from a business perspective. I also know that I’m a pretty good listener when it comes to specifically customers, but also my teams and right I’ve recognized very early on. I will never, ever be, the smartest person in the room. Right. but I have an incredible sense of right and wrong of what the right next steps are or what the wrong next steps are.
I have an unbelievable ability to manage risk and opportunities in a way. that absolutely delivers results. And so being able to run a business and constantly draw on the strengths, I have found have been a fantastic way to deliver business results for the matter, no matter what company I was operating under. and I’ve had the great fortune of working for leaders that I always, I always thought it was really important. to choose who I worked for. Right. And in specifically is that leader, someone I can learn from. And, and so who you work for is really, really important on your success, because one they’re going to help you grow. They also will. If You pick the right person, they’ll have your back, right. And when you do mess up, because you will and, and they will also give you that candid feedback. And You know, if you’re working for somebody, that’s not, then that means they’re probably not working hard enough to give you the feedback you need.
Phillip Naithram: So, you’re, you’re bringing up something that I don’t think I knew until maybe recently is that we have a lot more autonomy on the jobs we take, especially, well, I I’d say now more than ever in the technology industry, because of, I mean, they’re calling it the great resignation but just the war on talent is a real thing. And that in that people that are technologists in particular and, and, and other people to anyone listening, like we have a lot more control over what our career looks like. Then we may think sometimes it feels like we just got to take the job that’s offered to us because somebody wants us, you know, they picked me out of all these people.
What are some of the things that people can do to, to even find that out? Is this the person I want to learn from work from? Are they the right mentor from, is this the right position for me to spend a couple of years learning from this person?
Angie Heise: So, one when you’re going through the interview process, right? So, if It’s an external company, it’s an interview, both directions and you need to treat it that way. So, you need to ask about their experiences. right? What do they do to support their employees? Right? What’s the best mentoring experience they ever had. Right? You can ask those questions and I’ve been through so many interviews where you, you can just tell right?
The people are, they’re just so drained from having to answer questions that they lose the will to ask one, right? Or they ask one that is very tactical. and That’s a missed opportunity, right? To be able to really find out who is this person that I quite honestly, I’m getting ready to put my career in their hands in some respects and my personal growth, because it could be limited by that person. Or it could be, exponential growth, right. Because of that person. And so.
Phillip Naithram: well, you have both of those experiences, right? If you had one person saying, Hey, you’re probably great at it, but I’m not. I mean, I just feel like I don’t want to do this. you know, and, and if, if that was, if you didn’t do the things you did, you would have been limited by that person. And then you have other people that, you know, actually the next boss looking up that gave you the tools indirectly to do all the things that you’re doing now.
But you know, I think it could be decision fatigue too. Like in the interview process, like. Can people say, look, I don’t want to meet more than one person in a day when I interviewed with you, because I want to be able to learn as much as I can from you.
Angie Heise: Yeah, you. can Absolutely do that. I will tell you, I, I asked about my So, current boss, Julia gliddon. Who’s fantastic. Right? So, besides the interview, I went and asked about people that had worked with her previously in every interview that I had with people in Microsoft. I said, describe to me what Julia’s leadership style is. Right. Give me your last experience in the meeting you had with her last right. asking questions because I, I wanted to make sure. that I was working for a person that I could learn from. And, and that was the person that I thought she was when I spoke to her on the interview. And I’m very fortunate. Cause she’s, she’s absolutely fantastic.
Phillip Naithram: Well, I feel like we learned a lot about you today. I want to get to the question. I think I; I did this thing I sort of answered it for you almost, but the jumping off point a moment in time where, and it’s described in two different ways, actually a moment in time where you can no longer keep doing what you’re doing, but you may be uncertain about what to do next.
So, it’s an inflection point. You have to do something and this doesn’t have to be career-wise. This could be in your personal life. Or, you know, some people have described it as a time period where at the time they thought it was something really bad, they viewed it as a negative experience and they didn’t want it to be happening.
It was painful either physically or emotionally or both. And, and now they look back and they’re just incredibly grateful that they wouldn’t be either the person they are or be in the position that they’re in or have the relationships in their life that they have, or know the things that they know without that experience that at the time was so painful.
Angie Heise: Yeah. So, you know, I, I ended up leaving lighthouse about 2019, right. So, I took 18 months off before I decided to join Microsoft. And that was definitely a, that was a definitely, I would say a jumping off point, right. There were a thousand reasons why I wasn’t sure. what I wanted to do next. And I really wanted to get clarity about, about who I am, where my family’s at before I decided what I wanted to do next. And. I’ve had this amazing career already. But at the time I was working at lighthouse, I was 45. I was running an organization. of almost 4 billion, a year, 10,000 people reporting to me. And Everyone tells you that your career is a marathon. Right. And it’s a journey and you have to enjoy it and everything else I can tell you that seven years up to that point. And even, probably prior to that, I definitely was not treating my career like any sort of marathon. Right. It was a sprint over the course of seven. years. So, from 2012 to 2019, I went from running. a team of 800 to 10,000.
It’s a lot. It’s an over seven years. Right? So, you think of all the, and in that was a merger and acquisition. right? We got sold off from Lockheed Martin and merged into Latos. I had between those seven years, I had 1, 2, 3 different jobs, right. Different roles. As far as businesses I ran had traveled the globe. I mean, just really fantastic rate experience in career. It was going so fast. and I really wanted to be deliberate about what I was going to do next. I do. I have to make my plan and I decided to take a break and, and really step back. Think through, what I wanted to do. I still have a lot of runways. Right. I still, plan on working for a long time and wanted to think through what I wanted to do, Next. I wanted to search for that 20% of doors. I didn’t even know was open.
Phillip Naithram: So how did you, how did you work through that, that decision? I mean, your kids are, you’ve got the 12-year-old at home. Well, he wasn’t 12 but your other kids are older, so they’re out of the house.
Angie Heise: Well, I had, at the time I had another son home who just he just went to college this past fall. So that was the other thing that was weighing on me right Is I only had him at home for another year. And a half right before he was off to college and, and I was gone a lot.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah. With you, traveling had used, been able to spend a lot of time with,
Angie Heise: I think, that’s my kids hopefully would tell you that the, time I spend with them is always high-quality time. Like right. I’m present I’m with them, and, and we do fantastic things together. But it’s, it’s a demand of, the jobs, right. That I’ve had is that I am gone right. Sometimes. Sometimes I’m gone a lot and high-quality I really, I really was kind of second guessing, okay, how much time am I spending in a way versus here? And, and what does that look like, And, and so, like I said, there was a thousand things going on in my mind that I needed to, I needed to get some distance, So I could think through what I wanted the rest of my not only career, but my life to look like.
Phillip Naithram: Did you make a list when you were doing this
Angie Heise: I did. I journaled about it. I made lists,
Phillip Naithram: long did it take? So how long did it take you to make the
Angie Heise: it took a long time,
Phillip Naithram: Once you start, like, like months,
Angie Heise: so yeah, months. Yeah. And my husband thought I was absolutely not to be honest. Right. He was not. I think he may have, may have said the word, midlife crisis at some point, but high-quality he, he actually Juan he’s always unbelievably supportive, but he, he came around and understood, and then I’ll be honest after I was off. he was like, I totally get it. I totally, he totally understood. I needed to get off that that treadmill for a little while.
Phillip Naithram: What was different about you? During that 18 month, like, what did you leave behind? Like what did you let go of where the thing, I mean, or were there things weighing on you that you didn’t even know until it was gone?
Angie Heise: Yeah, there was, so there, there was a lot, right. So, I did make my less, so I still got up at five. 20 every, well, actually at that time I was getting up at four 30. so, and going to the gym between five and six. So, at that time, for the first four months, I was off I still got up at four 30 and went to the gym because I had read enough books that said, you know, a lot of people that make this decision where they take this pause, that they’ll go into this funk and they’ll get depressed and everything else. and so, I didn’t want that to happen. And so, I stayed I had a schedule on that. I stuck with for that time period until COVID, hit. And then that kind of threw everything a little bit for a whack. But by that time, I was already in a, in a good place, but he could see the, the stress. kind of coming off of me. Yeah. And as well as me really thinking through what I wanted to do and Kronos, we make the decisions as a family. Right? What do we want the rest of? our life to look like? Right. What is, what does that mean? mean for us? And we had a lot of, fantastic discussions as a family. about, you know, what we wanted to do.
Phillip Naithram: So why go back then? If you’d like, if you were in a, it sounds like a better place.
Angie Heise: I I’m still in a great place. I think it was just a I thought long and hard about, whether or not I wanted to come back. Right. Or, or what I wanted to do next
Phillip Naithram: yeah. Like why go back to the same thing that like, you couldn’t have known, it would be any different from what I mean, like the industry is the industry, right?
Angie Heise: Yeah. But I, I love, I love the industry. I think That’s the other thing that knowing after I left is I find a passion and an energy from, capabilities that help defend. and protect nations. And that’s a huge mission that I feel really connected with. And I realized I wasn’t done right. Maybe I had been tired, Maybe I was, you know, lots of, other things, right. But I wasn’t done. And I am wanted to make an impact. in a slightly different way. And I chose Microsoft. because I am felt like I had, a fantastic fit with our culture. I think technology companies have a huge ability to make a difference in policy and. And our customers in a way that maybe other, some other companies can’t and I wanted to be able to figure out how to. make a bigger impact
Phillip Naithram: Well, it’s working out
Angie Heise: Yes, yes. I’m loving it.
Phillip Naithram: Yeah. Well, listen, I really appreciate you. You taking some time to chat with me and I feel like I learned so much from having to make a list for everything I do now, you know?
Angie Heise: I’ll send you a
Phillip Naithram: I want to learn everything, you know how to do so before I let you go, why five 20? Like what, what does this number have to do with anything
Angie Heise: I found out is the time that I don’t press news. Right. I never oppressed news at five 20. I am I’m awake? And I just, I get up, so I used to have it at five 15. I had it at five 30 for a little bit, and it works for me. And five 20 is It’s a perfect amount of time. It’s time for me to be, able to, I can make my ice coffee. I can make my son’s breakfast. I can get dressed and be out the door. yeah. No hiccups.
Phillip Naithram: So there’s no extra time to hesitate in between the next
Angie Heise: There’s none. Is no thinking. right? It’s just, I have my routine. Yes,
Phillip Naithram: You’ve got 25 minutes to make all this happen and.
Angie Heise: door. All right. don’t second. Guess yourself?
Phillip Naithram: Five 20. I’m going to set that clock today.
Angie Heise: Thank you.
